On this episode, Meg Stephens joins us to talk about parenting from the RRT perspective.
Parenting isn't a one-size-fits-all endeavor, and this conversation dives deep into the nuanced art of connecting actions with logical, related consequences.
We unravel the science behind behavior and the importance of intentional responses that teach responsibility, stepping away from arbitrary punishments.
From the natural consequences of forgetting a jacket to the empowerment of constructive guidance, we shed light on strategies that can lead to children learning valuable life lessons on their own. Through this exploration, we underscore the significance of how we, as parents, can cultivate a less emotionally charged and more effective dynamic with our children.
As we wrap up, we celebrate the transformational power of gratitude and validation in how we acknowledge our children's achievements. Shifting from telling our kids "I'm proud of you" to encouraging them to find intrinsic value in their actions, we explore the pivotal role of language in shaping young perspectives.
Meg Stephens is a Rapid Resolution Therapy Specialist, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, and art therapist. She founded her practice, Bear Light, in 2023 and has since been meeting with individuals with the intention to increase peace, creativity, and laughter within their lives. After graduating from Florida State University in 2020 with a master’s degree in art therapy, Meg was introduced to Rapid Resolution Therapy as another incredible approach to healing and became the youngest Certified RRT Specialist by 2022. Her specialties include healing trauma, release from emotions such as fear, anger, and shame, as well as parenting issues.
Join Un/Conventional CEO - The Club - here.
Get in my new program: Clean BDE here.
Book a 1:1 Session with me here.
Follow me on Instagram here: Angela Marie Christian
Follow me on X: Angela Christian
Purchase my best selling book (Manifestation Mastery) here.
Join my newsletter here.
On this episode, Meg Stephens joins us to talk about parenting from the RRT perspective.
Parenting isn't a one-size-fits-all endeavor, and this conversation dives deep into the nuanced art of connecting actions with logical, related consequences.
We unravel the science behind behavior and the importance of intentional responses that teach responsibility, stepping away from arbitrary punishments.
From the natural consequences of forgetting a jacket to the empowerment of constructive guidance, we shed light on strategies that can lead to children learning valuable life lessons on their own. Through this exploration, we underscore the significance of how we, as parents, can cultivate a less emotionally charged and more effective dynamic with our children.
As we wrap up, we celebrate the transformational power of gratitude and validation in how we acknowledge our children's achievements. Shifting from telling our kids "I'm proud of you" to encouraging them to find intrinsic value in their actions, we explore the pivotal role of language in shaping young perspectives.
Meg Stephens is a Rapid Resolution Therapy Specialist, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, and art therapist. She founded her practice, Bear Light, in 2023 and has since been meeting with individuals with the intention to increase peace, creativity, and laughter within their lives. After graduating from Florida State University in 2020 with a master’s degree in art therapy, Meg was introduced to Rapid Resolution Therapy as another incredible approach to healing and became the youngest Certified RRT Specialist by 2022. Her specialties include healing trauma, release from emotions such as fear, anger, and shame, as well as parenting issues.
Join Un/Conventional CEO - The Club - here.
Get in my new program: Clean BDE here.
Book a 1:1 Session with me here.
Follow me on Instagram here: Angela Marie Christian
Follow me on X: Angela Christian
Purchase my best selling book (Manifestation Mastery) here.
Join my newsletter here.
Society told us who we should be. I tried that. It's not for me, and if you're here, I'm guessing it's not for you either. So welcome to the unconventional un-CEO podcast with your host, angela Christian, where my mission is to help you break free from the matrix once and for all to live a life of freedom, joy, wild abundance and fulfillment on your terms, unsubscribing from the status quo because you don't fit into someone else's box. Are you ready? Let's do it.
Speaker 2:So welcome to the show, Meg. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was honestly really honored to be asked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you helped me a lot and we'll'll get into that shortly, but I had some of my listeners know I've been experiencing some challenges with my four year old son and you really helped me so much and just some of the things you said I felt like parents just really need to hear. So I'm glad it was helpful for you. Yeah, very helpful. So first I would love to hear more about how you found RRT and then, well, and just to let the listeners know, I posted in our membership, our RRT membership, asking for help with my son, and then that's how I connected with Meg. So we met in the RRT community and, yeah, I would love to hear your story and how you found it and on all of that, Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So let's see back up to 2021. So not too long ago I was working at a place called Honey Lake Clinic. It's a residential mental health facility and Tammy Nibbs was working there as well and she's one of the other certified RRT specialists. She's been in it for a while, she's a veteran, and I had actually never heard of RRT before. I had just graduated the summer before, so I was a pretty new baby therapist working on their clinical team.
Speaker 3:I got my degree in art therapy, so I was doing a lot of art therapy while I was there and you know, I just ran into quite a few people with trauma specifically, and the two things that they kind of had there were like OK, you can sign your clients up for EMDR or you can get them to see Tammy and do RRT. And I had a little bit of an understanding what EMDR was. I had at least heard of it. It was kind of the new shiny toy in the mental health world regarding trauma. And so when at one point in time I had an adolescent client who the EMDR therapist was unavailable and was like, all right, well, I don't really know what RRT is, but if Tammy's available I'd love some help and thankfully she was really cool with letting me sit in and watch the session. I think my client was a little bit more comfortable with me being there and being present, and so the first time that I got to watch kind of essentially a live RRT session, I was thinking this is so cool and so weird. Yeah, and how can this possibly be working, were a lot of my thoughts, all of the silly stories and the way that she laid it out. But I also found myself genuinely entertained. You know, my client was just in it. She was, you know, laughing along to things and laughing at the same time as she was talking about stuff that was, you know, the worst things that she'd ever experienced in her entire life, and I just at first was thinking, wow, this woman is incredibly talented. And so, you know, I got to watch a couple more of her sessions and she saw how interested I was in it and she said, hey, if you want to get trained in this, like this seems like something that might be up your alley. Gave me some information, so found myself in the foundations course of RRT. Um, my work helped to pay for it, which was really awesome, and so that's when I met John Connolly for the first time and just fell even more in love with it.
Speaker 3:It was finally a perspective that seemed to have an answer for everything, which I just really found like grounding. I love just being able to know, like every single thing that somebody can tell me. I have some words for it, I have an understanding for a way to explain it, not only to myself but also back to them and explain it in a way that's uplifting and empowering. I never loved diagnoses. I don't like labeling. Even before RRT I was likely to say you know, let's make a spectrum or let's think of it as this thing that you know, just a label. A bunch of random people kind of arbitrarily decided a checklist of symptoms, went with and kind of call it a day. So it really fit with the way that I like to think it was so creative.
Speaker 3:With that art therapy background, I found myself like, okay, well, if I'm not going to be doing art with clients in session RRT, I sort of think of as like I get to paint pictures with words. Yeah, and the way that I do sort of think of as like I get to paint pictures with words, you know, and the way that I do these metaphors is just like I'm using the same parts of my brain that I would use if I was trying to come up with a composition for an art piece and thinking through like what is the image, what is the intention? Right, that I want to kind of come through. So all of that together really just kind of had me like okay, this is it, this is the thing that I really want to get involved with joined membership. After you know that 40 hour training and I think within a year became like the youngest RRT specialist, to the point that John would make jokes within trainings, that I was like a teenager and at one point somebody actually believed him. That's funny, wait, are you actually 17?
Speaker 3:I was like no no, I'm a grown adult.
Speaker 2:I have a master's degree. Oh, that's so cool, and so so. Are your patients primarily children and teens, or do you also work with adults?
Speaker 3:I do also work with adults. So I would say right now it's probably between the work that I do in my private practice and I also I still work at Honey Lake part-time it's probably about 50, 50, maybe 60, 40, 60 being kids and teens. But you know, when you're working with kids and teens, they tend to come with parents. Yeah, yeah, they tend to come with the adults that watch over them and guide them and parent them. So, along the way working with children and getting really good at it, not only have I learned ways to speak to parents, but also just a lot of things to kind of guide parents.
Speaker 3:And this is what you can be doing at home. Right, I'm quick to tell a parent who wants to bring their kid to therapy like, hey, listen, an hour with me is going to be helpful, but it's not going to be nearly as helpful as you making consistent changes with the way you're responding at home, cause they're with you all the rest of the time. Yeah, yeah, right, and one hour with me, if nothing changes at home, is realistically probably not going to make a huge difference. If, specifically, if we're talking about like behavioral challenges, right.
Speaker 2:Right, no, that makes sense. And then I also wanted to touch on yeah, so I shouldn't be. Well, I shouldn't say I shouldn't, but I do label my son as ADHD, even though he's never been diagnosed, and so I am constantly working on it. I would never say that in front of him, but how would you recommend, um, like, if a parent is handling a child who's having challenges like what's another, I guess, like hyperactivity, orivity, or how do we talk about it in a way that's not going to put a label on them?
Speaker 3:I tend to think of kids who maybe would quote fit the diagnosis for ADHD as like, listen, you've got superpowers. You have a really, really crazy ability to get super, super focused on things, more focused than a lot of people would ever be able to do. Because I think so many people focus on the attention deficit portion of it that they forget there's there's hypofixation, right, and that can actually like that is the part that a lot of people technically with the diagnosis, or they're kind of out in the world living undiagnosed. It's just this different brain, this different way that the brain can work Right. And so, specifically with kids, I would kind of say like hey, it's a superpower, but with all superpowers we got to learn how to kind of wrangle it Right. And I might say to a kid like you know, spider-man's super, super strong, but when he first got all that strength, didn't he kind of like mess some stuff up occasionally because he didn't quite know how to handle it Right? So it's more like yeah, we're going to learn some skills so that our superpowers can actually be put to really, really good use, you know.
Speaker 3:So kind of reframing it that way and then for parents saying like hey, a diagnosis isn't terrible if you're using it in the means to get your kid more resources right. It's just sort of a means to an end at that point. Whatever it's on a file, it doesn't. My kid is still my kid. And if I have to go to a school guidance counselor or somebody and say, yep, like he technically has an ADHD diagnosis, that's beautiful if it's going to get you more resources, um, and so specifically with the kid, it would kind of be like, yeah, but you know, also on the file is like how tall you are Right and how much do we really care about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so true, yeah, no, that makes sense. So for my son, because he's only four, um, I have been doing a home neurofeedback training on him and so I call it his superpower brain training and so that's kind of like in the same way and so he gets yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's like let's do my brain training. I'm going to be a superhero, so it does make it where if I was like okay, come on, we've got to do your neurofeedback.
Speaker 3:It's like that when you're like you got to take your medicine now and they're like I don't want to take it.
Speaker 2:Exactly Okay, so that makes a lot of sense, thank you. So when you're working with clients, do you typically work with people in the office or do you offer telehealth for people? Just so that anyone listening knows.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my private practice Barelight is strictly telehealth at this point and you know I know that before kind of COVID times people, it was pretty taboo honestly to do therapy or life coaching or anything like that via telehealth. And then we all just kind of had to make it work when it was a necessity. And now I honestly see so many more pros than I see cons. I don't find an inability to connect with people over you know telehealth. I think that if somebody is not going to connect, it might be more of a personality thing than it is a technology versus in-person thing. You know, I obviously did all of my training with RRT through you know, a virtual platform, so I was learning.
Speaker 3:Almost all of the videos that I've now watched of RRT is John doing it over you know telehealth. And on top of that, the ability to record and have somebody get to like go home with a copy of all of the things they did. Because one thing in RRT is like a lot of words are said. I end up saying a lot of things and telling a lot of stories and there's so many people at the end that will say something like man, you said so many good things. I wish that I, like you, know, and I don't want to be distracted by taking notes, and taking notes doesn't even really grasp the whole thing, and so a beautiful thing about telehealth is like I can hit the record button and email it to you later and you can go back and hear my words anytime you want to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, that's very true. Yeah, absolutely. And so kind of focusing on the like parenting, just because I know in the RRT community there has been a lot of interest in the RRT like way of parenting. I haven't been able to join any of those calls yet, but just for the listeners I would love to just cover maybe some like key or basic. You know, if anyone's been listening, they know that RRT is a different way of thinking and so in that it's a different way to look at how we parent and I would just love for you to talk about anything that will help us, help our children thrive, versus how most of us grew up with, like the moralistic conditioning and all of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely I. Actually, one of the parenting trainings that they recently ran, I was leading and then we only got through about maybe 60% of what I had planned to say, because it was just so much. It's like, all right, there's going to need to be a part two guys, so that's actually coming in the future. But as far as specific parenting techniques that are in line with this RRT perspective, the very first one, which you already brought up when we were talking earlier, is this moralistic versus scientific thinking, and you know, people who are probably listeners of your show maybe might be a little bit more familiar with that terminology, people that aren't. It's the very basic difference between thinking in terms of good, bad, right, wrong, what I should do, what I shouldn't do, naughty and nice when I'm talking to kids, I'll call it Santa Claus language and then scientific thinking is all of the thinking that's really only based in cause and effect and it has nothing to do with what you like or what you didn't like. A scientist is not going to say that water boils at a different temperature just because somebody wants to boil their tea faster. It's like well, I don't really care what you want to do. That's not the chemical properties of water. Right, right, yeah. And so, taking that way of thinking that there's, you know, obviously there's so much more to that, but applying it to parenting, it really kind of lays us in a place where we are focused more on consequences, kind of taking that cause and effect becomes action and consequence, right, and so, rather than, you know, telling a kid, oh, you shouldn't have done that, through this more scientific way of thinking, I would go, okay, well, if that happened, then that's pretty much the only way that that could have possibly happened. So that's the way that that had to happen. Therefore, that's the way that should happen. And so now I have the decision of what to do next. And so, okay, your kid's colored on the wall. Instead of saying, no, that was naughty, we shouldn't have done that, it would look like oh, there's marker on the wall.
Speaker 3:I, as the mom, don't particularly want marker on the wall, so I think that we are going to have to paint over it at some point, and if I want my kid to learn that it would be a better idea to ask me for paper next time than it would be to color on the wall. When they want to be creative, I might say oh, you know what. You were going to play with blocks later, and I know you were really looking forward to that. However, now that we've colored on the wall, I think you might have to come with me to get the paint, and I think you might have to sit with me and I'll teach you how to repaint the wall, and that might interrupt block time, right? So you haven't done anything regarding emotions.
Speaker 3:You haven't said this makes me so upset. You haven't said this makes me so disappointed. You've simply pointed out oh, this is a thing that happened. Well, guess what? It has a consequence, and if I want you to learn that there are better ways or things that are probably more valuable to do in the future, then the consequence is probably going to need to be something that you're like oh, I'd rather not be doing that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but including this process of learning, right? So having the consequence be related, it's not oh, you did this, so therefore you don't get screen time later. It's like, well, not having screen time doesn't have anything to do with what I you know, I colored on the wall. It's no, you're going to have to spend time with me getting paint and you're going to have to spend time with me while I repaint the wall. Or, if you're old enough, you would be repainting the wall as the kid, right? So those related consequences are really really great and simply staying in that frame of mind that this, whatever my kid just did, that's what had to happen and I, as the adult in the situation, have the power to apply a consequence.
Speaker 3:Sometimes we get lucky and we don't even have to apply a consequence because there's a natural consequence that happens, and so we can just lean on that as the parent, right? Our kids refusing to put their jacket on. Okay, buddy, if you don't put your jacket on, it's going to be cold outside, and if you're cold outside, then you know you, that might be pretty uncomfortable. Okay, you, you chose to not wear your jacket. There's nothing that I need to punch. There's nothing. There's no added consequence.
Speaker 3:I need to put on, because, guess what, if they're outside and they're experiencing cold, that is the consequence.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that makes so much sense. And I'll just touch on two things that you said really fast. One I love that you said the consequence should be related, because that makes so much sense. And I think with little kids, and this is, I might've mentioned this during our other call, but one of the things I didn't love about my son's school is that he would call someone you know they were joking They'd call each other names on the playground Hours.
Speaker 2:Later, at nap time they would say, oh well, because you called him a name, you can't read a book at your nap time. And it's like, first of all, I don't think we should punish with books just because if he's wanting to read, you know, yeah. So it was like it had nothing to do with what actually happened. So I love that you're saying that. And then it's kind of funny because my son did color all over his brand new TV and I was just like, well, I guess it's going to kind of distort some of your cartoons, you know, it's like yeah, so you went more, with the natural consequence there of, like you're not going to be able to see your TV as easily because of this choice that you made.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so I love that and, um, and just like that's something about RRT that I really have loved also, just as an adult is, it helps you kind of stay with the facts. And so before RRT, I would get really emotional and think, gosh, this shouldn't have happened or I should have done it this way, and or I would be even embarrassed about things that were just factual. And so now I'll catch myself and I'll be like, well, that's just the fact, there's nothing to be embarrassed about, it's, it's factual, just like you know, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. You know, with my height or whatever, you know my hair color, it's like, yeah, so I love that. You said those things. I just wanted to say that really fast.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so I think, kind of going going with um, the how to then teach your kid like what you do want them to do, because the moralistic thinking and how to apply consequences is kind of like what to do when your kid's already done something you didn't want them to do. Um, but starting from a place of how do I, how do I even give instructions, how do I give guidance so that we can be preventative for a lot of this stuff, and that's where we're really using that power of intention. Rrt, like intention, is one of the big keywords that you will hear over and over and over again. And specifically how to set an intention that your subconscious mind can really see. And I tell people all the time listen, children think like your subconscious thinks.
Speaker 3:So if you are already learning how to speak to your subconscious effectively, you are already practicing how to speak to children effectively. It is essentially the same. You want to be direct, you want to be concrete, you want to tell them what you do want them to do, not what you don't want them to do. Because if you're looking at a three-year-old and they've got a you know, big old pile of mud in their hand and you say don't put that into your mouth. Guess what picture you just placed in their head and you can pretty much bet that that is the next place that mud is going to go, because they have very little impulse control. You showed them a picture of something and that's pretty much. Their hand is already headed in the direction of their mouth before any thought has truly occurred, right? So, with our intention really getting super concrete and seeing in your head what you want your kid to be doing, right, Getting that picture really clear, and sometimes it can be, it can be a really like present moment, immediate future kind of intention.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's helpful to set that intention out a little bit, right? So I'm dealing with my kid. They've just done, you know, maybe they they just bit their brother or their sister, and I'm now about to approach a conversation with them about it and I am thinking forward to there's going to be this situation or time in their life where somebody maybe touches their body in a way that they don't want it to be touched, and how do I want them responding in that moment? Right? But how would you prefer your kid to be responding in the future when they handle really tough situations that maybe have some overlap with this unique circumstance you're about to go tackle and so through, just like we say in RRT, if I set my intention really clearly for my client, my words naturally follow.
Speaker 3:I'm not having to put as much effort and energy trying to think of just the perfect word to say. I was like no, I just set a really, really clear intention and then words come out of my mouth, right. So with parenting, very, very similar thing If we're focused on where we want to see our kids, it is less of a let me try to find the perfect words and more just let me experience this moment with my kid while I have this really strong intention and vision of where I want them to be.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that and I actually had never thought of doing it in that way with parenting. So, thank you, that's like, that's huge, that is something yeah.
Speaker 3:And the yeah, the last one. That's kind of just a basic. If I were to say, like my top three, parenting you know kind of tips and tricks regarding RRT is setting your expectations appropriately. I think one of the conversations we can have within RRT world and perspective is the difference between our intention and our expectation for a situation. An RRT would have you thinking my expectation would best be based on history, the actual things that I have seen occur. That is the most likely way for a situation to pan out in the future.
Speaker 3:If I invite my friend to coffee five times and they are about 20 minutes late every single time, it serves me very poorly to expect them to show up on time the sixth time, right. That doesn't make any sense at all, even though a lot of people would end up getting tripped up on that. But they should be on time Right. Why? Because society told me that's what good people do. So when it comes to children, it's setting that intention of like I am setting the bar fairly high in my mind of what I want you to be doing and what I want you to learn.
Speaker 3:However, I'm going to set my expectation on what I have already seen you be able to do and what I have already seen you be able to do right, and what I have already seen you be consistent with. So if the last five times I've handed you a sippy cup, you go ahead and you turn it over and spill it on the rug, it really doesn't serve me to expect that the next time I hand you the sippy cup you're all of a sudden going to be drinking out of it. You know perfectly, appropriately, right? So when we set our intentions, not only based on what our kid has already shown us they're capable of, but also really on those like appropriate developmental stages, it leads to us being less disappointed and less frustrated more often. And when we've got less disappointment and less frustration, we're just naturally going to parents more valuably, right? Naturally, the things coming out of our mouth are going to um, you know, serve us and our children, because when frustration goes up, that's the anger going up. When anger goes up, intelligence goes down.
Speaker 2:Very true, yeah, and I think that's um, that's so important for parents to remember too is, uh, it is so true about the expectations because I just actually came from um a family event where one of my family members is always late, like always, and we sat and spent a lot of the time talking about, about even though I know this like she shouldn't have been late, you know, here's why, and it's like always, this is just who she is, you know, and it's like gosh, we spend so much time just just putting that on other people, like well, they should be, because this is what society said you, and like applying that to our kids will help not just our kids, but it'll help us be better parents too. That's so powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, like you know, taking, if I going back to the, you know, the sippy cup example, if I can expect, if I hand you the sippy cup while you are standing over the rug, that this is going to happen, it's within my power as the adult to just change the circumstance right.
Speaker 3:I still want to be able to hand my kid the sippy cup, but maybe I say you're going to have to have the sippy cup in the kitchen over the tile floor where, if you dump it over, I can easily wipe it up, right?
Speaker 3:So if you're, if you're willing to take out the should of you know, I should be able to hand this kid the cup and they should be able to drink it without spilling it on the floor. It's like the last five times it's happened, it hasn't gone that way. So I am just going to change the situation, um, so we don't run into this problem again, and once you start showing consistency that you know, the past several times I've handed you the cup, you haven't dumped it over try out the rug, right? Um, I'm still probably not expecting the sippy cup to not go on the rug, so maybe when we try the rug next time, it's going to be filled with water and not juice. So it's kind of things like that, where you're, when you set the expectation and you know what your kid is capable of. You, as the parent, can be making the decisions that are within your control, so that we just limit the amount of chaos that the kid ends up causing.
Speaker 2:I know it's like, and this is so, it's like such common sense, but I just think because not, I know, I guess it's not naturally, but when you say it it's like, it's like duh, that's common sense, but like, that's not how we thought you know, I know it's so funny.
Speaker 3:It's not what we see, it's not what we hear, but when you know, when it's explained, it's like, yeah, I don't know why I was thinking of it the other way in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and so one of the other struggles that I find is I've worked on this a lot myself with my kids, like saying you're, you're being a good girl, or don't do that Like you're being bad.
Speaker 2:I've worked on that. And now my parents, when they help me because I'm a single mom, they'll help me. I'll hear my mom say, no, you're, you're being, you're being a bad boy, or you can't get that because you're a bad boy. And I have to tell her, like no, he's not bad. Like let's think of a different you know way. Like I'll say, you know maybe, like oh, if you're listening, well, but I know that it is just like it's still new to reprogram our mind and our automatic parenting words and behaviors. So, like, what would you say to, to me and to other listeners? Like other options?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, um, could you maybe give me like a hypothetical situation that you might be dealing with, like the one that you just gave? But what would your, what would your son have been doing previously?
Speaker 2:that kind of led up to grandma saying this that kind of led up to grandma saying this yeah, so I think it was, um, I think he was messing with the dog. Um, the dog just had surgery and had a cone head on and he doesn't understand, and he was being a little rough with the dog.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, and then what did he want, when grandma was saying no?
Speaker 2:because you're a bad boy. He wanted a popsicle.
Speaker 3:Okay, um, so, instead of no, you can't have this because you're a bad boy.
Speaker 3:First of all. I mean, you've already made a great improvement of no, we can't have this, because we were, you know, we were doing something that was potentially harmful to the doc, right, and so there can be an action when I or even just like I asked you to stop and you did not stop, right Again, staying with the facts of like, that is what happened. I said this and you responded this way, and so now these are the consequences. Um, another thing that you could do if you're trying to learn is hey, I would like for you to see, can you go show me gentle hands with the dogs before I give you the popsicle? I really want to give you the popsicle, but I also want you to learn. So let's go, let's go have gentle hands with the dog and show me how you can pet the dog, and then we can go get the popsicle. Then you've placed the ball in their court, right. You've given them the little sense of control back of. I am willing to give you the popsicle. Your actions now determine whether or not you get it Right. Right, and so that would be something that you might be able to say in terms of how to just get away from the bad boy.
Speaker 3:In general, you could say something like I didn't like how you acted, yeah Right, even better would be the dog was not safe while you were acting that way.
Speaker 3:Because if it's about what I like or what I don't like, if you're saying that pretty often, what I don't like, if you're saying that pretty often, what your kid is kind of learning is, I should be thinking about what's valuable based on what my parent likes or doesn't like. And, as we are all fallible humans, if our kid is only thinking about what we like and what we don't like, that's going to lead to some issues down the line, right? Either we're not going to be around in the same way anymore for them to kind of ask and judge. There's a lot of anxiety because sometimes I like something and then I don't like something because I'm an inconsistent human. So it's hard for that to be the barometer of what's valuable, because I as a parent could be fairly inconsistent on that. Um and so, going back to you know, no, because this was the consequence to your action the dog was unsafe while you were touching him like that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's great. Um, and from the ROT perspective, what is what is the general view on like? So sometimes, just as an example, my son if he's told no, like he can't have something like at 7am, he wants a Pops breakfast. He will sometimes go into just like a fit of hitting kicking, and so I've been putting him in a time out. But I have to kind of like put my arm around him and I say, like I'm just going to cuddle with you for a few minutes until you can calm down. But I'm like, while I'm doing that, I'm like is this the right thing? Am I causing more trauma? So yeah, I would love for you to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, if we've got any behaviors that start to get into the realm of unsafe, right when we're dealing with safety, and that means that they are doing something that could harm themselves, they're doing something that could harm somebody else, especially. You know, this is, this is relevant when they're younger, when they're hitting and kicking their little legs and fists truly don't hurt that much, right? But again, going back to your thinking future term of, I am trying to parent now to be really preventative for what I would not like to have happen in the future and eventually those hits and kicks are going to start hurting and would be a safety issue, right? So if there is safety issues going on, it is absolutely okay to intervene with your body. As far as just I'm going to prevent you from doing the thing that is unsafe, and while I'm doing that, I love the we're just going to have some extra calls until your body is calm, right? Um, I, like I really love scapegoating the body.
Speaker 3:That's a, that's a big one I'll use a lot if, if they're really, really upset, um, I'll talk about what I noticed happening with their body. Um, so, until our arms and legs are still, um, until I notice breathing is a little bit more. Even we're just going to, we're going to chill for a little bit, and you really only have to state that one time, because it is helpful to like explain. This is what I'm doing. But when we go to repeat that, they're still upset and we're saying over and over again no, I'm just going to hold you because you're safe, upset, and we're saying over and over again no, I'm just going to hold you because you're safe, you are speaking, and that is still activating that like word part of their brain, right, and that word part is not functioning very well.
Speaker 3:At that point, right From the RRT perspective, it is like anger has hit the roof. My intelligence and problem solving is all the way down here, and so none of what you say is going to be responded to with any sort of rationality. So, yes, one quick, all right, I'm going to hold on to you until our body is safe and then we can have a talk about this, and then you don't have to say anything. From that point on, you can model with your breathing. You can do really overemphasized breathing while you're close to them, because that is more likely to be connecting with their subconscious than any sort of words. What you're doing is using your body to show them there's no threat, because if there was a threat, I wouldn't be breathing slowly and evenly and really relaxed.
Speaker 3:You know my whole body as the adult is showing there's no threat around and if I'm not instigating more things with my words, it's usually does not take very much time at all for their little body to come right back down because there's no added stimuli to like ramp it back up again. Yeah Right, and so as soon as their body is calm, you can let go. Okay, great, our body is calm now. So are you know, can do we need to have a conversation about it? Are we ready to have a conversation about it? Um, and that would be kind of the way that that I would approach it, and I think it's. It's really in line with RRT, because when you're dealing with safety, sometimes you got to have an intervention that promotes safety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and, and sometimes he will be like trying to bite my arm, which has. Bites do hurt, and so I'll have to be moving my arm around, and so I guess, just on that same thing, one last question is um, what do you think about? Should it be more um, when your body's calm, then that's when we can talk and you know he'll be released, or you know, I know it's kind of old school, but I don't know if it's like four minutes, because he's four, but four minutes on the timer, but if he's already calmed down and then knowing he's having to sit there longer than he gets riled up again. So that's something I've been kind of like going back and forth with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm more likely to just say whenever your body's calm, because that incentivizes them to calm down faster the next time, if they calm down in 30 seconds and they still have to sit there for four minutes, four minutes is an eternity for a four year old.
Speaker 3:So I think yeah, I'm kind of with you on that of like they, they are likely to ramp up again because their mind starts getting activated and if they're not transitioning to now we're problem solving, now we're doing something about it. Um then, yeah, they're likely just to go into that like anxious, fear, anger spiral, um, whatever's going on there. So I would I would be, as soon as your body is calm immediate positive reinforcement with now we get to talk, now we have connection. Right, you're still not necessarily going to get what you wanted, which was the popsicle before breakfast, yeah, but we can at least talk about it and we can say, yeah, you wanted a popsicle. I can give you parameters under which you can have the popsicle after school. You know, if you have done this, this and this, I would love to give you a popsicle within these set of parameters which I, as the adult, kid to set.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love that and that's what my intuition was. Um at his school they were doing this time thing and then one of his um like brain doctors said that and it just it didn't sit well with me because I'm like usually after about 30 seconds to a minute he'll calm down. And then it's like why am I making him sit here? And then he gets all riled up again. So it just didn't make sense.
Speaker 3:Unless. The only thing that I would add to that is if somebody, if you had somebody that was like, really, really adamant, we need those four minutes, I would be suggesting connecting with them and guiding them to do something during those four minutes. So, hey, for these four minutes we are going to, you know, do, let's do some grounding skills together, let's count our toes together, um, you know, so it might be, hey, four minutes to truly fully let your body calm down. Yeah, um, but it's not four minutes where there's disconnection, it's four minutes of connection. I'm here with you, I'm sitting with you and we're doing this four minutes together. Um, rather than I'm going to, kind of, what John will joke is you go put a kid in timeout and it's like, just you know, casually, briefly showed them their death, this disconnection from you, and their subconscious is going. Uh, the food bringer is not going to be around. That sounds like no survival for me in the near future.
Speaker 2:So true, and see, I love RT. Like I can't wait for the day when schools and like preschools and daycares, are all trained in this for our children. You know, because they're still doing a lot of these, like it has school that before I pulled it, it's a great school, they're sweet teachers, but like they're just doing what they've been taught, you know, and it's very much.
Speaker 3:A lot of times, unfortunately, teachers don't have a lot of control over how to do behavioral management because the people that are maybe above them in the system are kind of laying down the law of. This is how you have to. I mean, there's so much being regulated and controlled now within the school system and my mom was a first grade teacher for 12 years back in the like eighties and nineties, and she now hears stories from teachers and is like oh no, oh no, I would not have put up with this.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, like it. Just it changes so much, yeah. And I was like, can't he just like, when you can tell he's going to have a meltdown, can he just like run and get the energy out of his body? And it's like they said, yes, but then he's still young, so they can't really just release a four-year-old out. Someone would have to watch them. So I understand.
Speaker 3:It's like so even building in problem solving around. Hey, is there something he can do Like jump squats at his seat. You don't have to let him run around, but we can teach him how to do rocket jumps and that's something that he can just put his. Push his seat in and, as long as you stay right behind your desk, get all the energy out you want, buddy.
Speaker 2:That's a good idea, see. Yeah, I think we just need to think kind of like outside the box for these. You know, my two daughters. I didn't have any issues with them. They're, you know, very well behaved at school. But he is more challenging, you know. So it's like I'm just now learning and seeing all of this. My third child, you know. So it's like I'm just now learning and seeing all of this. Uh, my third child, you know.
Speaker 3:So it's just I like, and when I'm speaking with parents who maybe are in a similar situation, I like to remind them like, so this particular kid is helping you learn more than those other kids. Oh for sure, you are growing as a problem solver. You are growing in your you know depth of patience, and that all translates into all these other areas of your life as well. Right, You're going to be a more successful business person with more tolerance for craziness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like also, just he, he helps me be more present, because what I've noticed is when we play, he really wants me looking at him present, because what I've noticed is when we play, he really wants me looking at him and like you know, and so it's like, so I've been able to practice that more with him, so that's been helpful. Um, so, yeah, this is so amazing. I love this conversation. I could talk for hours. Is there, is there anything else you would add, like for the listeners?
Speaker 3:Well, cause I know we, we, talked about how to kind of get away from the bad boy, um, but I, I also kind of have some thoughts on how to get away from the good girl, good boy, yeah, right, um, that that's something that a lot of people are maybe thinking like was that really a problem, right, right, um, even going so far as it might sound pretty radical, but I've kind of made the decision with my kids, like I'm not to tell my kids that I'm proud of them to everybody. Dramatic gasp, right Even. As, like I work part time in this like medical setting, mental health world, and if I were to say like, yeah, I just don't tell people that I'm proud of them, I'm not going to tell my kids I'm proud of them. They're like that's what we're constantly encouraging people to do is feel proud of themselves. And you have to tell your kids that you're proud of them or else all these terrible things are going to happen.
Speaker 3:And no, because pride and shame are two sides of the exact same coin, right? So if I tell my kid I'm proud of you, that automatically means that there is a possibility that I could be ashamed of you. Because it is light and dark as soon as we acknowledge that there is something called light. It means that dark exists, right, and so I always tell people hey, gratefulness is a perfect substitute for pride. You know, we can ditch shame and say I don't want to substitute for that, that one's just out with the garbage when we ditch pride, gratitude is really something that is a beautiful step in, to kind of fill the void, right. Instead of yay, me, I graduated, it's wow, I'm so grateful that I had all of the opportunities that led to me being able to graduate. Right. Because when you really start to think about it, how much of the things that led to me graduating was strictly me and my choice and my skills Right, it's actually a very, very small, tiny, tiny portion of the things that led to that that had anything to do with me, right, and so when we're talking to our kids, rather than I'm proud of you, it might be something like I'm so grateful that you have that opportunity. That's so cool, I'm so impressed, I'm so inspired, right, pointing out just what the consequence is of that thing. So, hey, I got an A on this test. That means that you, you know, you're probably really well set up for for taking the next test right, or even asking them to reflect on what the consequences hey, I got this on this test, that's cool. What does that mean for you? What's that going to help you with next? Right? And getting them to reflect on, because that's building in them.
Speaker 3:You don't want to keep doing this stuff because of my emotions, right? I don't want you to be reliant on my pride for you to choose to do something valuable. I want you to be thinking that's a valuable thing to do because it's going to lead to this next opportunity. Which is going to lead to this next opportunity? Right? That's a mindset that can follow them all the way through their life. And if I at one point just kind of lose it, then they're not reliant on me and my emotional state or my thoughts to have them continuing to choose to do the valuable thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that is what I had to work so much in RRT to clear is because I was one of those kids who would say, like I got an A, I would actually get paid by how many A's I would get. And so it was all this external validation, all this pride. So I would still find myself and I still have a little bit of it that I'm working on I would still find myself going to my mom for approval before I would do things, even though I would know what to do and I actually have a lot more worldly skills, and I always thought, like, why am I still asking for her approval? And then, when I got into the world of RRT, of course it made sense. But like, yeah, I love that. And I love saying like, wow, I'm so impressed, like because that's still like giving the positive feedback, or is that what you said?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, impressed, inspired is another good one Right With with really really little kids. I love sometimes when people don't know how to speak to really really young kids. I say, oh, it's so pretty. You can say you drew a picture, you use the blue crayon, right, like, literally just stating facts in an excited voice and they eat it up. Oh, that's so true. And then you're helping them to reflect back on like, yeah, I did do that. Yeah, right, when they're a little bit older and they have language, you drew this picture.
Speaker 3:Can you tell me about it? Right, so I don't have to jump to. You did such a good job. It's so pretty, it's just as simple as. Can you tell me about it? Right, right, can I show interest and engagement? Oh, I see that you really took some time here with with coloring in all of these triangles. Right, you're pointing out to them the effort that they put forward, that thing all without doing good job, right, good job, good girl, good choice. It's like anything that I can do to try and obviously I'm not perfect, right, like you said, we're all still working on our stuff, um, but to the best of my ability, taking out the goods and taking out the bads. Um, and just when people say it to me sometimes in session, especially if they've known me for a little bit, I might just go ah, what's good? And just kind of shockingly remind them like, oh yeah, we're not using that word anymore, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly no, it's true I need to do that shock on on my parents, but now I have, because I she would ask me, well, what should I say instead? And it was like you know, I had to think about it. So now I can go share all of this, you know, with her, because she is willing to change. But nobody taught us other you know until now.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so good.
Speaker 3:I mean I'm so grateful that you've got a situation where where she is willing to learn.
Speaker 3:You know, some people are in a position where they've got to rely on the village and we don't always choose exactly who's in the village, but we got to use the resources that we have and so for people who whether it's a co-parent or grandparents or the school teacher that you just can't afford to change at the moment, reminding them that an influence from you is going to be better than nothing and ultimately your child is going to grow up, and they will.
Speaker 3:If they have this way of thinking, kind of as a lens right, we talk about it in RRT as this different lens, that kind of clicks in. If they are familiar with this kind of language and this kind of thinking, they can eventually have the brain power to see and compare those two ways of thinking and choose one for themselves. Brain power to see and compare those two ways of thinking and choose one for themselves. So, even if you can't control or influence the other people that have time with your kid, you are still doing very, very valuable stuff and it's not it's not being undone by the people around you, right, and that's kind of like a really helpful thing to keep in mind.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, huge Um, because, yeah, I work with a lot of moms who have issues with co-parenting, so maybe we'll have to do another episode in the future, all about that. Oh yeah, I just came in to do that. I was like, ooh, there's another episode we could do, so, um, yeah, no, that is so helpful. And if someone wants to work with you, what? Where's the best place for them to find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so they can find me at my website, which is barelighttherapycom, um, and then through there they can easily, uh, submit a contact form or even just go straight to signing up for a consultation or a session. So it's a pretty easy just like click here to sign up, and if they want to email me directly, it would be Meg Stevens Stevens, with a PH at barelighttherapycom, and I'm happy to answer any questions for anybody that reaches out and says hey, I just, I just had a quick thought, what do you think about this? Yeah, very happy to do that.
Speaker 2:That's great, and I'll link your website and your email in the show notes just so that people can Thank you.